Color issue in PDF conversion and printing

Question

Hello,

I am contacting you about a question that has been bothering me for quite some time.

I work in Illustrator CS5 (no images, just vector) and with CMYK documents.
I also use the basic CMYK palette.

These are therefore printable colors almost as they are if I'm not mistaken.

My problem is that when I want to convert it to PDF for printing (save as => PDF) with any settings (I've tried everything), sometimes it outputs colors that are totally different from what I had in Illustrator.

And this doesn’t happen all the time (even more surprisingly).
What is even more incomprehensible to me is that if I open this same PDF with strange colors on another PC, it shows the correct colors.

So I thought it was a problem with my Acrobat and that it would print correctly.

In the end, the printer printed everything with the wrong colors.

Another time, I directly gave the Illustrator file to the printer (digital printing and not offset), and he converted it to PDF himself, and once again it resulted in the wrong colors.

Do you know where the problem might come from?
As a reminder, my document is indeed in CMYK, and my colors are taken from the CMYK palette as well.

Thank you in advance!

Configuration: Windows 7 / Chrome 33.0.1750.154

kaumune · Accepted Answer

No printer has RGB ink (it doesn't exist)

Inks are necessarily CMYK, as color printing is done through subtractive mixing (httpt://www.newtone.fr/cours_colorimetrie_additif_soustractif.php)

Some consumer printers are called RGB and do their own little magic

Professional digital printers work with CMYK inks compliant with European standards (Euroscale)

They have RIPs (an element that converts the provided print files into a dot pattern applied to the photoreceptors of the printing engine)

Therefore, they do not convert anything unless the operator deliberately decides to, just like when adjusting the ink cartridges of an offset printer.

Basically, a screen (which has a color gamut, the ability to provide colors) much broader than a printer sends the colors directly to the eye (additive mixing) while a printed page reflects the part of the light determined by the pigments present on the paper (subtractive mixing)

This explains, among other things, why the color rendering of printed materials is completely different depending on ambient light.

A true printing professional will therefore work with RGB using the CMYK profile that corresponds to THEIR machine to achieve the best possible conversion.

Once the RGB to CMYK conversion has been made upstream, it is irreversible; you cannot return to RGB with the CMYK file to make a better conversion.

Those who want to work with CMYK files (necessarily created with a profile somewhere in the graphic chain) do not actually understand the processing of a digital workflow and shift the blame for poor color quality by saying "it's your file that is bad"

Photoshop, for example, uses US standard CMYK inks (swop) by default, which produce prints that are too dark on a press with Euroscale inks.

Oh dear, I see that the problem (printing what I have on the screen) is still so delicate to solve.

A good solution is to create your own "proofs" on a personal inkjet printer.

Don't laugh, you can achieve very good results by calibrating your screen with a probe and having print profiles created for your printer (and paper) by specialized companies like the excellent Christophe Métairie

You send him a print of test charts made with your equipment, and he creates a profile by analyzing this print with a spectrophotometer

http://www.cmp-color.fr/Imprimante.html

contrariness · Answer

The first thing to do when printing is to have a calibrated screen...
So, calibrate the screen with a probe. (or empirically: https://photographe-de-mode.com/calibration-ecran

Then, you need to check that you are working in the CMYK color space.. (menu "file/color mode of the document") and that the display appearance matches what your workspace is intended for (menu "view/proof setup/...") in this location you should find a profile, which, if you have synchronized your Adobe software, will be the same everywhere.

And when you are working in CMYK, when creating the PDF, do not embed a color profile, you are already in CMYK so it is unnecessary.

Eanil · Answer

Hello,

Everything is fine in CMYK, no problem.
How do we synchronize all the Adobe software?

As for the calibration, I will take care of it, but the problem cannot come from there because with the same screen, I do not see the same colors depending on the software and the file format.

Thank you.

contrariness · Answer

Synchronization is done through Adobe's "bridge" software  Check the color configuration status in the "Edit/Colors.." menu  Workspaces must be set up for the same display output

Eanil · Answer

I have synchronized everything for printing, and my colors have changed a bit, thank you.

However, the problem persists when converting to PDF: the colors are a shade "darker" in Adobe Reader than in Illustrator (and it unfortunately prints as Adobe Reader displays it).

I am therefore awaiting your suggestions ;)

contrariness · Answer

There is no color management with Acrobat "Reader".. It's just a PDF viewer.

To get more information about your PDF file and activate color viewing options (Display a preview of separations and warnings, test different color profiles, etc..) you need to use Acrobat "Pro"

kaumune · Answer

Hi   How does "the printer" print?   Through which program?   He doesn't know how to print directly an EPS from Illustrator or submit your PDF directly to his RIP?

contrariness · Answer

It depends on the printers... and the RIPs.

Recent RIPs accept PDFs directly. You just need to place the PDF file in the input folder for it to be processed into separations and generate the 4 films or plates (CMYK).

But more often, the operator goes through Acrobat (Pro) because of the verification capabilities thanks to tools like Pitstop or Debenu PDF, and the possible actions on color separation.

The error we often encounter at this stage is the mismatch of color profiles between those in the PDF document and the RIP. That's why I always recommend never to include a color profile in a PDF if it is already in CMYK and intended for color separation, for fear of having a false separation. (unless there is an express request from the provider).

EPS has been abandoned in favor of the PDF format because an EPS does not have the ability (among other things) to encapsulate fonts, which requires vectorization. The same goes for the AI format.

Eanil · Answer

Thank you for your answers.

I don't know which software the printer uses.

What's surprising is that whether it's done by him or by me, the PDF generated from my .ai changes color (I don't include any color profiles).

I think that if he had printed directly from my .ai, I would have had the desired colors.

Finally, I add that when I open my PDF in Illustrator, everything is fine.
But with a PDF viewer, nothing works anymore.

How come the printer printed the way it looks in Acrobat and not the way it looks in Illustrator?

I would like to no longer have this problem with my future creations...

It's a bit of a headache! A file is not the same color whether it's in one software or another...

contrariness · Answer

With 50% cyan and 100% yellow, you should get quite a yellowish green... compared to a Pantone shade, it would be fairly close to PMS368.

If your printer produced something else, it's a problem on their side... or it wasn't the right file...

Eanil · Answer

Hello again,

Despite the fact that the other file shouldn't have ended up in the archive, I'm surprised that it's in RGB because I created a new CMYK document like the others.
Maybe it's because of the logo I copied and pasted, which was in RGB?

From seeing your screenshots, (unless my screen is playing tricks on me!) the green is exactly what I wanted (soft green).

Can you confirm that you see that shade of green?
It's important for me to know which of my software is misconfigured.

If so, I don't understand the result of the print!

Thank you again for your effort.

Eanil · Answer

So, what do you see in RGB? I checked and nothing should be.  It was printed digitally.

Eanil · Answer

Well... all these subtleties are really complicated when you’re not a printer.
Even information on the internet regarding color issues is very difficult to find beyond the RGB/CMYK differences.
Working in RGB? I don’t quite understand it all, but it’s surprising to hear.
I don’t really understand all this color profile conversion stuff.

Until now, I was creating in a CMYK document, saving it, and that was it.

I’m going to try printing my card on my printer, but I’m convinced that I’ll get a color closer to what I wanted than the printer will. I'll let you know the result.

I think I'm going to buy a book I saw that looks quite detailed regarding color among other things in graphic design and that goes beyond additive and subtractive synthesis.

Thank you, it’s interesting to read your thoughts.

contrariness · Answer

Working in RGB? I didn't quite understand it all, but it's surprising to hear.
I don’t really understand these stories about color profile conversion.

Up until now, I was creating in a CMYK document, saving it, and that was it.

It may seem strange, but there's a reason for that... There are several printing possibilities (for example, you chose digital printing..

A digital press doesn't necessarily have 4 ink colors. A digital printer like HP's Indigo can have 7 or 8 inks. This allows for a wider range of printable color shades (to print Pantone shades, for example).
So if you limit the possible shades to 4 inks from the start, you lose the benefit of a greater reproduction of colors available in the RGB space...

So depending on the destination of the work, you prepare your document accordingly... it's one of the things a graphic designer needs to know and take into account..

Eanil · Answer

This therefore means knowing exactly what equipment the printer uses, which is not always obvious.
Especially when creating for someone who wants to choose a printer afterward.

Even if the printer has 8 inks, how can one know what the colors will look like once printed if the document is in RGB?

This means one needs to know the color spectrum that this particular printer can produce, and I don't know if Illustrator, for example, allows for such a setting.

I would like to clarify that for my printing in this specific case, it was indeed digital CMYK.

kaumune · Answer

You got it all right  Indeed, we need to have the profile of the equipment that will print for the conversion to CMYK and thus the display on the screen.

Eanil · Answer

Hello,

I'm coming back to this subject because I have new information.
Indeed, I tested Acrobat Pro and found some... strange elements.

When I open my file in Acrobat Pro, it initially appears in the "wrong" color, the one that was printed, and the color analyzer gives a cyan of 52 and a yellow of 88:

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/238105image1.jpg

(Sorry, I can't insert an image)

And after a while, the image changes by itself to the one I wanted:

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/634023image2.jpg

With indeed 50% cyan and 99% yellow.

Why does this change happen?

Another thing, when I analyze my file with the "preflight check," it finds quite a few conflicts, and if I choose to correct them via Acrobat Pro, the problem disappears and my colors are correct.

Here is the report:

Results (Summary)
Error
Missing PDF/X Version Entry (GTS_PDFXVersion)
Overprint Identifier not true or false
Page with both a cropping area and a graphic area (only one of these areas should be present) (1 incidence(s) on 1 page(s))
OutputIntent parameter for PDF/X missing
PDF version later than 1.3
Warning
Stroke thickness less than 0.124 pt (1 incidence(s) on 1 page(s))
Object completely outside the media box (1 incidence(s) on 1 page(s))

There must be a setting to change when creating the PDF that I haven't done, but I would need your insights to identify which one.

But what's surprising is that it was the printer himself who prepared the PDF and that it was the wrong green (different from the provided AI).

Thank you.

contrariness · Answer

I don't see how the configuration of your file would change by itself if you don't make an intervention...

The information that the output preview returns depends on the color profile included in the file, and the simulation profile that you configure in the preview...

If you start with a CMYK file that has a different embedded color profile than the one you are requesting for the simulation, the information that the output preview returns is modified by that profile.

But if, through one of your actions, you remove this profile, then you are in a "neutral" CMYK state and the information that the output preview returns remains the same regardless of the simulation profile you configure.

In the report, there is nothing related to color; however, depending on the control profile you are using, a color conversion may occur during error correction.

Eanil · Answer

Good evening,

I'm revisiting the topic with the new elements I have.

"I don't see how the composition of your file would change by itself if you don't intervene..."

I now have the answer to this question. Acrobat Pro does not appreciate certain PDF exports I make (standards, etc.) and it creates a bug that disappears when we let it resolve the encountered conflicts.

However, I am currently reworking with green and I still have a problem (only with green or blue/green).
I also checked various forums, and many have the same issue, with numerous answers, but ultimately none that solve this riddle.
I synchronized my entire Adobe suite for prepress Europe, I apply a Fogra39 profile to everything I prepare for printing, I try with embedding, without, but the problem persists.

Everywhere in Adobe and even in the PDF viewer, I have a punchy color that appears washed out with my office printer (which is quite good).

I decided to export in JPEG and PNG to see.
The JPEG comes out the same color as what I see in Illustrator or Photoshop or Acrobat Pro, while the PNG looks like what I have in print.

In principle, desktop publishing software is set to simulate more or less the printing colors even though we work on screen, so why this problem?

Is it common to provide a PNG to a client so they can see the true colors they will have?
Is there a profile or export setting for a PDF that allows the colors to be adjusted to what will actually come out?

I also want to draw your attention to the fact that when I simulate the flattening of transparencies in Acrobat Pro, I can very well see the color that will be printed (but I would like it to be visible upon opening).

Sincerely.

contrariness · Answer

So, is it unnecessary to include a profile? Is it enough to set the workspace to CMYK? That's what I recommend (unless the provider explicitly requests otherwise) for the simple reason that if your profile is not the same as that of the RIP that will perform the color separation, it will be incorrect. This can easily be demonstrated in Acrobat "Pro" (viewing separations and choosing a different profile) or Photoshop.  I'm struggling to understand whether it's Illustrator or Acrobat Pro that is "right" regarding the color closest to what will be printed. Both can simulate the printing process. Your screen is in RGB, so you need to provide a profile in Acrobat Pro (output preview) and in Illustrator (View/proof setup)... If there's a variation between the source in Illustrator and the target in Acrobat, it's because the PDF saving has a parameter that modifies it.  Should we ignore the display color and only check if the percentages in CMYK are what we want? Of course not. If your screen is calibrated and you are displaying with the correct profile, what you see will be very close to what will be printed.  I don't really understand how, in this specific case where we would reproduce, for example, a green at C 60 M 0 J 98 N 0, we could get a different shade depending on the printers. Depending on the countries (USA, Asia, etc.), the inks and chromatic perception are different (hence the different separation profiles: Japan color, US Sheetfed, FOGRA, etc.). In Europe, manufacturers have rallied around a standard, and in theory, if the inks comply with the standard, the result should also be compliant. But as I mentioned earlier, if in the file you integrate a standard that is different, it will influence the color separation and thus change the distribution. It is then possible for your shade to become C58 M3 J94 N2... It's minimal, but 3% of M will give a red hue to your cyan...  All these explanations are for color separation printing (4 colors)... It works a bit differently in composite printing (digital printing) because this kind of printer often has additional shades (light cyan, light magenta, green, orange, gray, etc.). For this reason, the printer driver is capable of recombining the CMYK information contained in the file to interpret and reproduce it using the available inks. This is how it is possible to get closer and closer to Pantone shades... but also to have variations if a parameter in the driver is incorrect.

Color issue in PDF conversion and printing

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