ESILV or SUPINFO?
Raymond PENTIER Posted messages 58546 Registration date Status Contributeur Last intervention -
6 réponses
So I just graduated from ESILV and here’s what I can say about it:
First of all, it’s a school where it's quite easy to get in. Despite the 80% discount for residents of the 92 area, the Pasqua faculty, etc., there are really people from all backgrounds. In the first year, there are good and less good aspects... Due to the ease of admission, quite a few do not have the level or motivation -> many dropouts. My class started with 80 people. We finish with 45 (and there were a few new students at the beginning of the engineering cycle). Don't be surprised if there is filtering throughout the course. They are fairly nice, but you shouldn’t accumulate too many resit exams...
Today, the classes have almost doubled; in the first year, they are aiming for 200 students (with a little more than half expected to remain by the end).
Regarding the teaching:
, 2 years of common core similar to preparatory classes but a bit easier ^^ I can't really judge the level, as I'm in computer science, these subjects won’t serve me much, more integrals for me from the end of the 3rd year... then 3 years in specialized cycles (info, finance, mechanics, scientific computing).
I'll talk about what I know well (computer science). I received very good training; I had the “luck” of being in a year where nobody wanted to do it, so there were only 5 of us in computer science, basically private lessons... It can be a bit tedious sometimes because you couldn't skip classes ^^ but in the end, it’s beneficial.
A lot of Java language, and a very comprehensive training that gives us a good vision of computer science in general (java/j2ee, php, design patterns, middleware, mobile programming, compilation, functional languages, systems and networks, graphics, algorithms, HCI, parallel computing, data mining, crypto, AI...).
Regarding projects, we are generally offered things related to what the school’s R&D department is doing, with image processing (watermarking, etc...) and complex network analysis...
We will also soon have more and more mobile development, it seems.
For the options scientific computing (CS), info (II), and finance (MIF), I warn you right away: there is a lot (!) of computer science/programming: if you don't like it, go to another school
In CS, there is OpenGL, parallel computing, quite a bit of mechanics as well. It prepares well for everything related to R&D, engineering offices (simulation of issues on oil platforms, crash tests, etc.), in various companies, Thales, Valeo, PSA, Technip, Total... A lot of computer science as well, a lot of C++ but also some older things still used in many sectors, like Fortran, Cobol...
In finance, you better like math and computer science: that’s all there is and it’s the option that requires the most work, I think. I hear about Black & Scholes models, Monte Carlo simulations, Value At Risk, Greeks, volatility, Delta One (of course without really understanding ^^)...
The IT technologies used are Matlab/Scilab, R, VBA, C++, Excel, Visual Studio...
Mechanics is a bit separate, more traditional I think. They do much less programming, but still a lot of computer science (Catia, Abaqus...).
Overall, as some know: it's the Pasqua Faculty, so what I can say about the teaching is that we have all the elements to succeed because we have a lot of resources:
- Excellent quality teachers (but I insist! there’s even one who’s Mr. Perfect, those at Esilv will undoubtedly recognize him ^^).
- Clean and well-maintained facilities.
- Choices for sports, including a very nice gym inside the school and various disciplines available...
- Associations: extreme sports, photography, video, theater, music, skiing/snowboarding, karting, finance...
- And for those who like to have fun, a student association in collaboration with other schools (management, multimedia) with an interesting percentage of girls!
However, the canteen isn’t great, Avenance is not the best, it’s expensive for what you get (~5€ for a not-so-great meal).
In short, if you fail to train yourself properly at Esilv, in my opinion you can only blame yourself...
Of course, nothing is perfect, and I hear a lot of people complaining at ESILV whenever there is a downside. But overall, having interacted with people from other schools during my internships, I noticed one thing: in all schools, there will always be people saying “my school is really a mess.” I’ve heard it from people from EPITA, SUPINFO, UTC, EFREI...
On the other hand, I hesitated between ESILV and EPITA five years ago, and I really don’t regret my choice: from those I met during my internships, I really have nothing to envy them. On the contrary, I often had to correct their mistakes... (maybe I just encountered some bad ones). Overall, I feel like we are more supported at ESILV and that EPITA/SUPINFO is a bit like engineering factories...
Regarding the "prestigious" schools, I know quite a few people who went through prep, then Supelec, Centrale... Overall, they tell me "once the prep is over, we do nothing!" I even had to do IT projects for two friends at Supelec who were struggling too much, and another at Centrale did an internship in "the smoker's museum"... haha what a joke.
So we arrive at the point that seems to interest you all:
THE MONEY!
Regarding internships, I don’t remember exactly, but for my part, I had 350 (end of 2nd year), 600 (beginning of 4th) then 1300 (end of 5th), all gross.
As for the averages during the internships, we have internal documents with the remuneration of all students, I won’t pull out the calculator, but generally this year (+ last year) by eye:
- 1st internship: it ranges between nothing (or unspecified?) and 600€ for the majority (with many at 400), with a few at 1100, 1400, and 1900€ ( )
- 2nd internship: between 350 and 2000€, a little of everything, with higher salaries for finance and IT (average of about 800€).
3rd internship I’ll detail a bit more (yay it’s my class!):
- CS: average of about 900€
- GI: average of about 1100€
- MIF: average of about 1200€
- MS: average of about 900€
Now I see that many want to pursue MIF, because apparently it pays well?
There are still some things to know: the MIF path is difficult, and you must not be afraid of doing a lot of computer science/programming, and a lot of math!
Internships are the same: MIF students work more! But that’s the case generally in front office finance. Some interns have already left work at 2 am, and it’s not rare for many of them to leave after 9 pm as well (at least in the end-of-study internships, in my class). Don’t expect to work 35 hours, even if the internship agreement states it! (or don’t expect to be hired!). The average is rather around 50 to even 55 hours
The question: are you ready to work 30% more time for only 20% more pay? You might as well go into IT, find a decent job, and on the side take on an auto-entrepreneur status and find a few jobs to make ends meet ^^
For mechanics, it’s the opposite; at 5 pm many are at home...
Overall, it’s 35/40 hours
I come back to the starting salaries... I don’t have a reliable source, but in my opinion, all the press reviews like Express, Le Point, Usine Nouvelle, etc., are a bit nonsensical, both for ESILV and for other schools. I compared them, and for the same school and the same year, they do not give the same figures (with 2 or 3k differences per year sometimes!).
I’m quite surprised by the figure given for computer science in 2007 at 31k... During this crisis period, salaries in IT have all dropped by 2 to 3k, and for now I believe that everyone has found something at least 31k...
For finance in 2007 I can't verify, but indeed, according to my classmates in finance, you could expect between 38 and 40k upon graduation.
In a crisis period, today, they are still having trouble finding a permanent contract, some are considering doing a VIE, others a doctorate, others are extending their internship in the hope of being hired (with no guarantee! exploitation!). On the other hand, Société Générale is very fond of ESILV graduates in finance, and recently BNP as well: by the way, I was able to talk with a BNP trader who told me he was very happy with my classmates, and that compared to many other schools, they are already operational and very efficient.
A nice little anecdote, during the Jérôme Kerviel affair at BNP, 2 interns at the Delta One desk at SG: both are MIF graduates from ESILV hehe
Unfortunately, hiring is frozen at the moment. Our class's top student in MIF, however, managed to obtain a "special derogation" from SG with a position at... 36k. Not bad, but still low compared to 2007 for an effective finance professional. I'm not fully aware of everything, but I still have...
I am currently in my third year at ESILV, majoring in computer science as well. So far, I have done a lot more math and mechanics than computer science. I say this to remind a certain point that my school does not fail to remind us every year: ESILV aims to be primarily a general engineering school. The major is indeed something, but it does not appear on the school's diploma. This means that when you graduate from ESILV, you will primarily be an engineer, capable of working in any field. The advantage is that if you decide to change your specialization in your career, you will be able to do so much more easily than if you graduated from SupInfo. And eventually, you will always tire of computer science one day or another, so...
For the one who mentioned the EPITA interns who say that their school is "nonsense," I completely agree; several classmates have had the same experience! I spent a year at EPITA before going to ESILV, and I say NO to that school (SUPINFO, EPITA, EPITECH for me are all the same, even though EPITA is the only one of the three to be state-recognized, and still, only very recently)! From my point of view, its only advantage is that the students are BY FAR more comfortable in computer science upon graduation for tough tasks like programming, for example. But on one hand, it's an ultra-specialized school (and here I am returning to what I said above), on the other hand, it's a school that does not know how to teach computer science effectively (we are bombarded with very difficult projects and it's up to us to manage on our own, without any teaching to help us in parallel + the swimming pool during which we sleep at school, not very useful... etc.), and finally, when you are in a "pure and hard geeks" environment, it degrades the atmosphere and the students are very unpleasant (at least those with whom I spent my year).
There you go.
But I did quite a bit of research because I was in the same situation as you.
And my opinion is: go to ESILV.
Why? The diploma is state-recognized, it’s a bac +5. It’s an engineering degree. And that’s definitely not negligible. Supinfo delivers a title of expert in computer science (or something like that), and it’s not engineering. You have to be careful about this big difference.
Now, Supinfo is more about pure and hard computer science, and ESILV is a bit more generalized (without being the same as high school) and that’s why only one of the two can claim to deliver a true engineering diploma, so after that, it also depends a bit on what you want to do.
Supinfo is still recognized by companies, let’s not kid ourselves. But you will never be able to claim to be an engineer.
You go to the websites of these two schools by searching on Google because Google is your friend!
Message sent to ESILV:
It's going to be a long process, but certainly not the size of losing one or two years and €19K.
Students can save the €19,000 or more by directly entering ESILV in their 3rd year without worrying about these troubles. They will be warmly welcomed and well taken care of:
In the upcoming period, we will review the figures for ESILV. We will realize the abuses this school has recently exercised (and not before according to several confirmations from former students), especially regarding first and second year A1 and A2 students. Less than 30% of the initial admissions will successfully complete the first cycle in the end, and the rest have already paid the €19K and two years of hard work.
They claim it’s a matter of level, etc. There are certainly some who don’t have the level, but not 70% across the cycle of a cohort, which means over 200 students eliminated in the first year and expecting 60 (or even 120) in the second year (2023 figures). Unless the admissions office is totally incompetent, but the big question mark is the transition from the 2nd to the 3rd year! Indeed, those students are no longer just under admissions jurisdiction because they were students and succeeded in the first year with the ESILV system and program. In the end, around 33% of about 160/480 students complete the cycle in a "single school system" with supposed dedication?? They will be replaced by the CPGE entrants! Over 200 students from CPGE are expected next academic year! (Avenir competition 2023 figures).
ESILV does not show distinct figures between those admitted post-BAC and their success in integrating the ESILV engineering cycle, since the €19K has already been paid. But figures from some websites like l’Étudiant or Le Figaro allow us to establish the truth! What is the value of this integrated prep cycle to join the ESILV engineering cycle? (Most of the testimonial videos on the ESILV site come from CPGE students. They mention it).
What is the effectiveness of the ESILV integrated prep to integrate ESILV engineering? This is the indicator to look at and analyze before making a choice and putting oneself in the position that costs a mere €19,000!
They replace 20%, 30%, or even 50% of their integrated students with CPGE students coming directly into the 3rd year, jumping ahead of the "post-BAC integrated" students who have already taken more than 30% of courses in advanced computer science, algorithms, electronics, complexity, and I add automation, projects, hackathons, soft skills... even the TOEFL! Those coming from prep have not taken these additional subjects and have dedicated most of their time to the "classic" CPGE program: mostly math, physics, chemistry, statistics, and very little computing (by comparison). Yet, it is these latter students who are the lucky winners of integration into the ESILV engineering school??? The absurdity? The "Avenir e3A-Polytech" admission competition for ESILV does not include these subjects, which account for 30% of the time spent nor especially the evaluations at X, Centrale and INSA Lyon, as you do for post-BAC integrated students. It is at the level of Polytech schools as its name indicates (let's not confuse Polytech and X Polytechnique after all ????).
These admissions are supposed to be in addition to or parallel, as the name indicates, and not replacing what is happening with a good welcoming message from ESILV.
This integration figure for "post-BAC integrated" is approximately that of Jean-Daudet High School in La Rochelle, which ranks 65th out of 122 prep institutions (l’Étudiant ranking 2022) for integration into engineering schools. A public and free establishment in a very pleasant city!
One day is always 24 hours, not a second more, and one week is always 7 days, nothing more. How can we make up for the 30% of time spent on subjects that will be almost not retained to integrate this ESILV engineering school: the 3rd year?
Why is it called integration ESILV post-BAC? It should be indicated that it is almost a separate prep. In which case, this internal prep, whether or not it is subject, should adhere to the same access competition! And in which case, give it all the chances to succeed: the time, the CPGE program, and the Avenir competition, NOTHING MORE, no evaluation at Central-Supélec, no super-info, no projects, and no 30% of time and energy...
Otherwise, this so-called CPGE access competition to the ESILV engineering school should contain the same subjects and under the same level conditions (across all subjects including super-info..., projects..., hackathons, and all the soft skills... TOEFL) as the internal ESILV prep students.
The ESILV prep students, those named the post-BAC integrated, are not stupid nor below level and especially do not lack work at all. They just need to be evaluated in the same manner and under the same conditions as those from the access competition coming from CPGE without any additional subjects or severity! A single exam at the end of the year with a finalized program.
As soon as one of them leaves ESILV after this misadventure, they find themselves elsewhere, fully at: EPITA, EFREI, SUDRIA, 3iL, ISEP... EPITECH or even 42! Where is the bug then??
The student will agree to finance €19K at the great risk of being equivalently placed at Nanterre University, which is normally free during the said years! Lacking other public equivalence.
Another cunning aspect, the ESILV reports are only fully displayed to students after the application period for other competitions at other schools. Therefore, no possibilities for registration elsewhere until ESILV rejects you at the end of June! Likewise, the misalignment of the course program with the competition periods. A grinder and a machine to crush "integrated" students!
I will add some real facts from this year, and ESILV can prove otherwise; you, ladies and gentlemen recipients of this message, are well informed, if not more... :
The continuous assessments and exams have been extremely tough and lengthy this year, with allocated times being too short, reminiscent of the level for integrating X, Centrale-Supélec, Ponts, INSA Lyon…. They could have only missed the Gaokao! In light of the catastrophic results and to avoid general panic, ESILV increased the grades of certain TD groups by approximately 40%. In the second semester, these same groups had their math grades DOUBLED. Thus, the average for at least 3 major subjects approached the 10/20 mark. By the way, some exams and assessments that were originally graded on a scale of 30 were then counted on 20 while keeping the same grades for only those TD groups. The others, nearly 40 to 50% of this cohort, were left behind with a real conversion from 30 to 20. The turkey farce before Christmas!
These students did not choose to compete for X, Centrale-Supélec, or even Centrale Nantes or INSA Lyon / Toulouse. Otherwise, they would have gone elsewhere if they had this level and ambition. It’s like evaluating a fish's ability to climb a tree! These students actually have the competencies of the accredited ESILV program by the CTI.
The result is a total injustice in view of all. Information circulates among students! As no one accepts injustice, a climate of division between students establishes itself, those who benefited and those who were left behind.
Despite countless complaints by the delegates, enormous incoherences and total lack of coordination between TD teachers and the main course teacher. The TD teacher informs that there won’t be such and such a chapter on the test, and rear! The delays in the program with some TD teachers as compared to that of the main course, and rear! It's become so ridiculous that students suffer! Some TD teachers have become less or not credible. Students work on the TD of the main teacher without attending his TDs nor having the chance to ask questions and, above all, to receive answers. A sort of correspondence course. To this is added frequent interruptions of the ESILV data network during classes, which are all online. The teachers are informed but ignore it.
Maybe even the main and TD teachers coordinated, except that one had a B2 level in French in speaking and understood nothing from his colleague????.
Another technique used at ESILV, the isolation control, which consists of a single exercise of 10 questions that follow in results but significant grading points are from question 9 onwards. Therefore, until the 8th question included, the student barely accumulates a grade of 6 (eliminatory) if all is good! Most students barely get to question 8 due to time constraints. Reasoning and method do not count at ESILV, which claims to be preparatory!!! The result? It’s a miss!
The other technique, newly received information, retakes do not count for about 30% or more of the cohort; it’s in the strange regulation!!! You had to obtain 20/30 credits first. If the student faced problems in math (10 ECTS), no retakes and I’ll let you conclude????????. On this subject, they should at least count the true grades and not those doubled or otherwise inflated.
The overall result gives a real average of the cohort between 5 and 9 out of 20. The one displayed to students is much higher due to these manipulations. Consequences are that either the student is completely broken or abandons under all this internal pressure, added to external and social pressures from parents (for the over-indebted segment), or they hang on, but it becomes ridiculous, and it’s the integrated student who is accused of being incapable or not up to level! While the German, Anglo-Saxon, Nordic, and Finnish systems encourage students, you break them!!!
A feeling of injustice and exasperation among a good portion of students. Have you measured your latest audience rates on social media? Don’t you still understand?
Some even took photos of the first grades and averages before the fixes.
Sometimes there is barely one exam, a single control, and maybe a project. Project validations are current yet you don’t count them until now? Another empty promise from TD teachers?
Some TD teachers struggle to express themselves in French, at least, but seriously or barely at a B2 level. Listening to them, we can’t understand anything of their pronunciation (on scientific themes) and we find ourselves completely confused! Others limit themselves to writing on the board throughout the TD sessions without any answers to students' questions or explanations. There are even video recordings of these two types! ESILV is well informed, and you are well informed.
Accumulating all the mishaps, the student in integrated prep has paid €9.3K or €19K; it’s time to leave!
The director is aware of these inconsistencies and dysfunctions within the system among the teachers. You, ladies and gentlemen, are also well aware… and have DONE NOTHING, oh yes, you smile????. The school advisors are also aware. You are ruining your school! You are ruining the students and have not understood anything about the engineer's profession! Nor about that of a School and...
Hello,
I didn't read your lengthy text in full; there probably won't be many who do.
I've known some donkeys graduating from programs they paid a hefty sum for; it's important to choose wisely and also to know if it pays off in terms of professional integration for these "degrees".
But on a general level, the fact that a school is paid (there are integrated preparatory courses in other fields that are not) has nothing to do with its quality (see, for example, the case of prestigious business schools provided they can actually teach something) nor with whether or not there is a selection process.
This last word might be a big deal, but it also exists at significant rates in all first-year university programs, many of which people will complete without anything, but it is less apparent in pursuing selective courses (CPGE, Health...) where this selection is defined to have happened beforehand.
Scientific CPGE is a bit like the tree that hides the forest; any student who manages to enter and pass the first year is fairly certain to find a school, but not necessarily the one they want and at the cost of a workload that is unmatched by integrated preparatory courses, whose students often start from a lesser level; since obtaining an engineering degree, which is subject to a framework, is at stake, there’s no other choice than to ensure, in one way or another, that the students have appropriated the knowledge required.
Hello.
@ Nelly: A reply after 14 years! That's a bit stale, isn't it?
A lot of things could have changed, starting with the prices...
@ brucine: Indeed, I only read about 5% of that block of text, which seems of no use to cartmanezz, who has already finished their studies by now, and who might be a trainer or guidance counselor, who knows?